(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[300]OT[3x30 byo-yomi]
PW[GOallin]PB[kghin]WR[9d]BR[8d]DT[2010-02-25]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[GOallin [9d\]: hi
kghin [8d\]: hi
]RE[W+Resign]
;B[qd]BL[290.858]
;W[dp]WL[297.937]
;B[pq]BL[289.655]
;W[dc]WL[295.402]
;B[oc]BL[282.2]
;W[po]WL[292.674]
;B[qo]BL[281.326]
;W[qn]WL[291.068]
;B[qp]BL[280.272]
;W[rd]WL[290.28]
;B[re]BL[278.635]
;W[qe]WL[289.075]
;B[pe]BL[277.907]
;W[qf]WL[287.803]
;B[rf]BL[277.176]
;W[qg]WL[287.102]
;B[rg]BL[276.309]
;W[qh]WL[286.211]
;B[qc]BL[275.388]
;W[pn]WL[285.165]
;B[nq]BL[272.955]
;W[qj]WL[283.986]
;B[ce]BL[267.229]C[FieseMoepp: joseki
]
;W[ci]WL[281.428]
;B[cn]BL[260.169]
;W[cl]WL[279.465]
;B[fp]BL[257.407]
;W[co]WL[274.385]
;B[dq]BL[246.086]
;W[cq]WL[272.049]
;B[eq]BL[245.195]
;W[cr]WL[270.667]
;B[jp]BL[241.789]
;W[cd]WL[268.487]C[glimz [1d\]: who is goallin?
]
;B[gc]BL[223.495]
;W[de]WL[266.532]
;B[jd]BL[221.711]
;W[dn]WL[262.743]C[ShowDan [7d?\]: the go allien? 
Mokki [3d\]: hard for black to get both top and bottom
]
;B[dm]BL[192.235]
;W[en]WL[250.99]
;B[hp]BL[180.828]C[Warfreak2 [5d\]: phil ivey
]
;W[fl]WL[239.396]
;B[dh]BL[172.686]C[purprietor [4k\]: phil ivey v strong
]
;W[di]WL[230.801]
;B[fh]BL[171.148]
;W[ge]WL[227.566]C[purprietor [4k\]: at his game
evanj [2d\]: whoever he is he is wicked strong
]
;B[ei]BL[164.688]
;W[eg]WL[223.828]C[purprietor [4k\]: w is strong also =p
]
;B[eh]BL[147.575]C[hilarious [1k\]: lol
Warfreak2 [5d\]: goallin actually does not play go
]
;W[bg]WL[206.156]
;B[ek]BL[143.597]C[FieseMoepp: I prefer b here
Alenchon [7k\]: goal - lin
]
;W[dl]WL[202.466]C[Warfreak2 [5d\]: he has a program that translates the position on the go board into an analogous poker situation
]
;B[df]BL[136.322]
;W[ee]WL[199.287]C[glimz [1d\]: he plays poker and a computer translates his poker actions into go moves and vice-versa?
purprietor [4k\]: sweet
geoffrix [5k\]: serious?
Warfreak2 [5d\]: then he makes his move, and the program translates it into an analogous move in the go board
geoffrix [5k\]: amazing..
purprietor [4k\]: that would rule
]
;B[cg]BL[120.302]
;W[bf]WL[197.466]C[glimz [1d\]: haha warfreak -- i didn't read your comment before posting mine
hilarious [1k\]: does not compute
]
;B[hj]BL[107.399]C[Warfreak2 [5d\]: milanmilan has a similar program for soccer and go
KZhang [6k\]: but in poker there are only 5 options max. raise, reraise, call, fold, all-in
]
;W[ic]WL[187.273]
;B[id]BL[100.548]
;W[hc]WL[183.097]
;B[hd]BL[99.27]C[Mokki [3d\]: GOallin can't be Phil Ivey since he is black
FieseMoepp: Warfrak: the problem is: he always has 2 Aces
]
;W[gd]WL[177.063]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: poker and go not the same
Fenix [2d?\]: that's why he starts with 9d rank, FieseMoepp
KZhang [6k\]: pocket aces always cracks if played wrongly
evanj [2d\]: no?
FieseMoepp: not same but isomorohic
wrongkyu [4k?\]: i hate poker becouse you must always fold
purprietor [4k\]: you shouldnt hate
Fenix [2d?\]: isomoronic yeah :)
Warfreak2 [5d\]: nah
Sandmann [-\]: try origami
Warfreak2 [5d\]: win without ever showing anyone your cards
Avrora [3k\]: stradle, restradle
]
;B[gb]BL[30.952]
;W[jc]WL[174.251]
;B[kc]BL[29.31]
;W[kb]WL[172.698]
;B[lc]BL[28.25]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: is here high dan tesuji?
]
;W[hb]WL[111.603]C[purprietor [4k\]: we will have to waitt andsee
glimz [1d\]: looks like black played wrongsuji
Zuko [4k\]: j19
wrongkyu [4k?\]: i think b read this
]
;B[eb]BL[30]OB[3]C[FieseMoepp: m18 ?
]
;W[lb]WL[100.065]
;B[mb]BL[30]OB[3]C[FieseMoepp: cut
wrongkyu [4k?\]: f17
Razeeman [2k\]: t19 
st123 [1d\]: g19
Ptijoueur [1k\]: g19 j19
adminslayr [-\]: easy to read
]
;W[jb]WL[15.038]C[adminslayr [-\]: iam surpised 9d played like this
purprietor [4k\]: 9d move
carlcarl: lol
Ptijoueur [1k\]: j19 still
carlcarl: ..............
wrongkyu [4k?\]: d18
]
;B[og]BL[30]OB[3]C[glimz [1d\]: j19 never worked i believe
]
;W[kd]WL[30]OW[3]C[gnos [6k\]: Big eye wins semeai
carlcarl: still cut 0.0
]
;B[ld]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ke]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[je]BL[30]OB[3]C[Ptijoueur [1k\]: at least sente and set up semeai
]
;W[jf]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[kf]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[le]WL[30]OW[3]C[Ptijoueur [1k\]: maybe as a ko threat
purprietor [4k\]: hane hane
]
;B[if]BL[30]OB[3]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: fail go on
]
;W[me]WL[30]OW[3]C[purprietor [4k\]: n15 or something
Clynch7 [4k\]: 2 noobs
Clynch7 [4k\]: yeees
]
;B[nd]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[jg]WL[30]OW[3]C[coldbrain [2d?\]: M16 bad in my eyes
]
;B[ig]BL[30]OB[3]C[carlcarl: oops
FieseMoepp: fight for sente?
]
;W[ih]WL[30]OW[3]C[ChiefWigum [2d\]: EEEEEEEEEEEE
SLMaccabee [3k\]: who is goallin?
]
;B[jh]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[kg]WL[30]OW[3]C[purprietor [4k\]: w
]
;B[hg]BL[30]OB[3]C[MDLuffy [4d?\]: heiss
]
;W[kh]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[ji]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ki]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[kj]BL[30]OB[3]C[mooooo [10k\]: goallin is strong chinese go player maybe pro
FieseMoepp: omg
glimz [1d\]: haha
mooooo [10k\]: ;)
]
;W[lj]WL[30]OW[3]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: maybe w strong poker player?
]
;B[jj]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[mi]WL[30]OW[3]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: who lear go after 1 weak
]
;B[oi]BL[30]OB[3]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: learn*
evanj [2d\]: week*
glimz [1d\]: W is phil ivey
]
;W[of]WL[30]OW[3]C[carlcarl: wow
volcano [2k\]: lost by 10 to a pro earlier
]
;B[nf]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ne]WL[30]OW[3]C[ndbateam [11k\]: is kghin a kid ?
purprietor [4k\]: yes
geoffrix [5k\]: phil evey..
]
;B[oe]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pf]WL[30]OW[3]C[ndbateam [11k\]: wooaa
Woodrose [?\]: earlier? it was yesterday
]
;B[ok]BL[30]OB[3]C[Woodrose [?\]: you need to sleep
iamsorry [3k\]: kghin have played well than goallin?
volcano [2k\]: true
Clynch7 [4k\]: way to make sense.
]
;W[pl]WL[30]OW[3]C[adminslayr [-\]: lol o8 
mooooo [10k\]: hawaknow is pro?
volcano [2k\]: that wa the rumor
]
;B[mh]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ng]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[nh]BL[30]OB[3]C[odolany [3k\]: all the kgs mythology...
Woodrose [?\]: Haha
carlcarl: n12 strange
]
;W[mf]WL[30]OW[3]C[rstt2 [4k\]: eh a 9d
]
;B[ol]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[mm]WL[30]OW[3]C[rstt2 [4k\]: kgs shld hav 10ds
purprietor [4k\]: oof
FieseMoepp: w s12 sente?
]
;B[ml]BL[30]OB[3]C[carlcarl: p11 just a dragon = =
]
;W[ll]WL[30]OW[3]C[volcano [2k\]: although pros lose to pros by 10 points too
adminslayr [-\]: black was silly not to break off when he had the chance now he has to run for life
Fenix [2d?\]: the top 1 player with highest ranking should be "9d*" ie with a star ^^
adminslayr [-\]: if it is ever possible....which i dont think it is
]
;B[mk]BL[30]OB[3]C[mooooo [10k\]: is o18 playable for w?
ndbateam [11k\]: reverse situation
]
;W[lk]WL[30]OW[3]C[glimz [1d\]: there are 10ds -- if you look @ rank graphs
]
;B[pm]BL[30]OB[3]C[rstt2 [4k\]: how bout 11ds?
]
;W[qm]WL[30]OW[3]C[glimz [1d\]: also
rstt2 [4k\]: serious?
volcano [2k\]: i think Milan was 12d for a while
koxinga [13k\]: himountain too ?
glimz [1d\]: he is 11d from time to time
]
;B[om]BL[30]OB[3]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: why kgs don't enter 12d rated system?
Ignatius [2k\]: aza close to 11d now
]
;W[no]WL[30]OW[3]C[ebann [4k\]: 10 points is alot?
kingbong [1k\]: dead
]
;B[nn]BL[30]OB[3]C[kingbong [1k\]: must die
ebann [4k\]: 1 rank above?
]
;W[mn]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[mo]BL[30]OB[3]C[mooooo [10k\]: lets all vote for invinte dan ranks
]
;W[lo]WL[30]OW[3]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: no that will be bad
Mutenroshi [-\]: rustysword was 13d. too ^^
rstt2 [4k\]: ?
Ignatius [2k\]: aza currently top in list
Isobeutel [6k\]: i think KGS didnt need more and more dans, but a tougher rating system, like wBaduk
mooooo [10k\]: imagine 15d giving 6 stones to 9d :D
volcano [2k\]: where is he?
rstt2 [4k\]: black can live now cant he?
wrongkyu [4k?\]: this 9d must be like 5d
rstt2 [4k\]: oh
volcano [2k\]: rusty
rstt2 [4k\]: nvm
jhi: wBaduk is not tougher
]
;B[mp]BL[30]OB[3]C[crazyboy [4d\]: very dead
wrongkyu [4k?\]: strenght
jhi: wbaduk 6d is like 4d kgs
Mutenroshi [-\]: rusty back in korea
]
;W[nm]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[on]BL[30]OB[3]C[volcano [2k\]: yeah but never here
yjtyjtj: why 6d baduk is 4d kgs ?
Isobeutel [6k\]: im a wbaduk 11 kyu, on a losing streak
]
;W[rc]WL[30]OW[3]C[glimz [1d\]: my rank is higher on wbaduk than on KGS
yjtyjtj: cause 18 k baduk is like 12 k kgs
jhi: cause im wbaduk 6dan easy and strong 4d on kgs :)
kingbong [1k\]: was o7 better than p6?
]
;B[qk]BL[30]OB[3]C[jhi: maybe different in kyu range...
carlcarl: s9 s10?
rstt2 [4k\]: wbaduk?
jhi: but dan is definitly not tougher there
]
;W[ql]WL[30]OW[3]C[uzmest [2k\]: s17 is cool
xiaolan [3d\]: r18
yjtyjtj: yes wbaduk
jhi: former cyberoro, rstt2
rstt2 [4k\]: is that a new server?
rstt2 [4k\]: oh
]
;B[rb]BL[30]OB[3]C[glimz [1d\]: wbaduk = cyberor
glimz [1d\]: *o
]
;W[oo]WL[30]OW[3]C[sexyfion [3k\]: r18 ?
coldbrain [2d?\]: w has R18 now
]
;B[pj]BL[30]OB[3]C[Nooooooo [7k\]: SE sees things in a diffrent light :p
leachy [7k\]: w r11
hilarious [1k\]: s10?
]
;W[qi]WL[30]OW[3]C[hilarious [1k\]: o
]
;B[nl]BL[30]OB[3]C[rstt2 [4k\]: SE is a crack addict
sexyfion [3k\]: q9 ?
Sichuan [?\]: Heh awesome
leachy [7k\]: m6
wrongkyu [4k?\]: q9 dame
jackyyan [2d\]: o10
Forssaken [8k\]: o10 ,?
adminslayr [-\]: its score entretainer not estimator\\
hilarious [1k\]: m66
hilarious [1k\]: -6
rstt2 [4k\]: ha a WoT fan
kingbong [1k\]: ısınt
kingbong [1k\]: m7
kingbong [1k\]: better
kingbong [1k\]: why m6
leachy [7k\]: much of a muchness m6/m7
dago [1d\]: m4
Liisa [1d\]: a1 perhaps
]
;W[nj]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[lm]BL[30]OB[3]C[carlcarl: wow
Forssaken [8k\]: haha :p
kishambo [4k\]: does b have any chance to live there?
]
;W[ln]WL[30]OW[1]C[glimz [1d\]: wowie
]
;B[km]BL[30]OB[3]C[glimz [1d\]: w pretty sure of himself
iamsorry [3k\]: p10
wrongkyu [4k?\]: goALLIN
wrongkyu [4k?\]: yes w?
FieseMoepp: p10 ?
]
;W[oq]WL[30]OW[1]C[rstt2 [4k\]: ??
kingbong [1k\]: :)
jhi: cool
Pinguschaf [5d?\]: m4
ebann [4k\]: kghin had upset against ksi's mysterious PRO
rstt2 [4k\]: im confused
kingbong [1k\]: b ignore
leachy [7k\]: i dont get it
]
;B[lp]BL[30]OB[3]C[kingbong [1k\]: ?
]
;W[or]WL[30]OW[1]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: q2
hilarious [1k\]: s2
]
;B[pr]BL[30]OB[3]C[hilarious [1k\]: I fail
hilarious [1k\]: :)
kingbong [1k\]: w is he doing
s31ryu [3d?\]: --"
]
;W[pk]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[oj]BL[30]OB[3]C[Pinguschaf [5d?\]: w should have first p3
rstt2 [4k\]: im so confused
adminslayr [-\]: still not a bad result for black
]
;W[nr]WL[30]OW[1]C[kingbong [1k\]: why not
kingbong [1k\]: k3 or anytinhg
rstt2 [4k\]: whyd white let him go?
Sandmann [-\]: i dont understand what p3 does
kingbong [1k\]: so simple play and win..
Fenix [2d?\]: milanmilan said w is amateur (90% chance)
leachy [7k\]: w shoulda m6/m7
daladim [1d\]: i didnt get w last moves
volcano [2k\]: maybs trying gto win by .5
]
;B[ia]BL[30]OB[3]C[mperahia [3k\]: 6d amateur
leachy [7k\]: oops!
nohoper [6k\]: w just looking to win not kill at all costs
ndbateam [11k\]: b win the game
Sadaharu [5d\]: milanmilan is professional?
boTbl4 [5k\]: escaped
TheBard [5d\]: 2p
leachy [7k\]: w imploded in last few moves
]
;W[ha]WL[30]OW[1]C[glimz [1d\]: milanmilan 2p
RosDawson [5k\]: milanmilan habite à milan
gnos [6k\]: W could have killed if he hadn't played O7 I believe
Sadaharu [5d\]: ic
anglelll [1k?\]: w look down on b
volcano [2k\]: maybe it's jimmy cha
jaewon [4k\]: d18?
coldbrain [2d?\]: not O18 first as w ?
]
;B[la]BL[30]OB[3]C[leachy [7k\]: o7 fine needed m6/m7
]
;W[ec]WL[30]OW[1]C[Fenix [2d?\]: are currently school holidays in hongking?
sexyfion [3k\]: l19 ?
ebann [4k\]: semeai... who wins?
rstt2 [4k\]: MilanMilan's a chick?
]
;B[fb]BL[30]OB[3]C[Bluefinger [11k\]: no but in now yirk they are
]
;W[db]WL[30]OW[1]C[glimz [1d\]: sadly, not
rstt2 [4k\]: bt the pick?
gnos [6k\]: That cut at M7 didn't work without O7
rstt2 [4k\]: *pic
NinjaKun [1d\]: l19 kills
leachy [7k\]: must be his wife/gf
ebann [4k\]: W wins race
volcano [2k\]: anybody here remember jimmy cha?
gnos [6k\]: o7 allowed a forcing move from black
]
;B[md]BL[30]OB[3]C[glimz [1d\]: haha.. he wishes probably ^_^
]
;W[pd]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[od]BL[30]OB[3]C[daladim [1d\]: why not r18 ?
daladim [1d\]: ah
carlcarl: 0.0a
]
;W[rq]WL[30]OW[1]C[GoKirby [-\]: this is better
ebann [4k\]: R18 also very cute
rstt2 [4k\]: go for the kill!
]
;B[rr]BL[30]OB[3]C[GoKirby [-\]: white cant live with S17
Tosoko [2d\]: r18 not working
]
;W[lr]WL[30]OW[1]C[ebann [4k\]: ko threats
GoKirby [-\]: yes
wrongkyu [4k?\]: alive shape
FieseMoepp: s12 sente
]
;B[jr]BL[30]OB[3]C[anglelll [1k?\]: is w looks down on b?
NinjaKun [1d\]: why doesn't black L19?
NinjaKun [1d\]: ?
NinjaKun [1d\]: ?
]
;W[sn]WL[30]OW[1]C[ndbateam [11k\]: h7 bi
Forssaken [8k\]: he can't kill
GoKirby [-\]: l19 doesnt worl
revo [2k\]: l19-e19, w gets out
telchar [-\]: l19 g19 
imworking1 [2k\]: l19 g19
ebann [4k\]: L19 loses race
NinjaKun [1d\]: why?
]
;B[sp]BL[30]OB[3]C[leachy [7k\]: true gnos...p6 superior to o7 but i dunno he still might have been able to kill
marfg [3k\]: w likes to play tricky..
]
;W[ik]WL[30]OW[1]C[NinjaKun [1d\]: oh 
NinjaKun [1d\]: ok now I see
volcano [2k\]: a gambler
nohoper [6k\]: 9ds are like that marfg
]
;B[fg]BL[30]OB[3]C[gnos [6k\]: Poker is not a gambling game.
nohoper [6k\]: it shouldnt be allowed tbh
]
;W[gj]WL[30]OW[1]C[jaewon [4k\]: poker is not a gambling game...?
rstt2 [4k\]: poker may require som skill bt its still a lot of luck
volcano [2k\]: what kind of game is it
Tosoko [2d\]: lol
rstt2 [4k\]: its a gambling game
Tosoko [2d\]: poker is 90% skill 10% luck
gnos [6k\]: No. It's a game of skill that involves random chance
MDLuffy [4d?\]: less luck
ebann [4k\]: C14 looks big as does F1
rstt2 [4k\]: random chance is luck
Elrood [12k\]: rstt2 luck, or horrible math skills ; )
adminslayr [-\]: lol ok yeah. i say its more 40-60
Tosoko [2d\]: luck is in casino machines there is 100%
]
;B[hi]BL[30]OB[2]C[jhi: Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
rstt2 [4k\]: probability- luck
gnos [6k\]: Slot machines are luck
nohoper [6k\]: skill wins in the long run but not necessarily inthe short term
geoffrix [5k\]: yes 40-60
wrongkyu [4k?\]: i want know how to get luck
]
;W[qb]WL[30]OW[1]C[MDLuffy [4d?\]: 99-1
]
;B[pc]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[sb]WL[30]OW[1]C[wrongkyu [4k?\]: any1 here good at luck?
carlcarl: ?
ripeAces [?\]: in heads up play, if i go all in every hand, even the worst hand against the best hand hass a 19% chance to win pre flop
]
;B[ra]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[qa]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[sd]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[sa]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[rb]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ra]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[se]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[rh]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[sc]BL[30]OB[2]C[volcano [2k\]: anybody count?
]
;W[fs]WL[30]OW[1]C[Forssaken [8k\]: wow^^
anglelll [1k?\]: no need to count
SLMaccabee [3k\]: that's not true ripe
typohh [11k\]: jhi, work at mcdonalds is by that definition gambling.. the time invested certainly has a material value, and its always possible the local mcdonalds goes bankrupt before it pays ur wage so the outcome is uncertain.
Tosoko [2d\]: w is 13 years old
geoffrix [5k\]: heads up is so special
]
;B[fr]BL[30]OB[2]C[ripeAces [?\]: indeed it is
rstt2 [4k\]: they're both kids?
jhi: thats just nonense typohh :)
FMSH [-\]: w 13 ?
SLMaccabee [3k\]: kk v k2
gnos [6k\]: The fact is, poker is played over many hands. All the strategy involves how you play over many hands. It is not in any way betting on a single event.
]
;W[hk]WL[30]OW[1]C[volcano [2k\]: I think w is pretty ahead
SLMaccabee [3k\]: is much worse than 19%
jhi: so..
]
;B[ka]BL[30]OB[2]C[jhi: why do u bet ? :)
jhi: i mean
]
;W[ea]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ja]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fc]WL[30]OW[1]C[jhi: why is it called betting ?
]
;B[ef]BL[30]OB[2]C[rstt2 [4k\]: lol- GOallin's info
jhi: if its not betting ?
gnos [6k\]: With slots, the bets are independent.
leachy [7k\]: my count: really really close and anyway can't count empty spaces that well
rstt2 [4k\]: does the river make u cry?
ebann [4k\]: C14
geoffrix [5k\]: lol
]
;W[dj]WL[30]OW[1]C[volcano [2k\]: yes!
]
;B[mr]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ms]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[mq]BL[30]OB[2]C[gnos [6k\]: There is not strategy that will allow you to increase your win over many hands at slots.
rstt2 [4k\]: sounds just like that poker player
]
;W[ej]WL[30]OW[1]C[nohoper [6k\]: i've won a 1000 player onlinr poker tournament.....it wasn't luck
rstt2 [4k\]: i forgot his name
rstt2 [4k\]: james or jimmy something i ifnk
rstt2 [4k\]: insults his opponents nd wears sunglasses
rstt2 [4k\]: checks rly fast
]
;B[dr]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ds]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[es]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[er]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[gs]BL[30]OB[2]C[typohh [11k\]: in hu poker typical standard deviation is around 70bigblinds, and if you are very good you earn around 0.2bb per hand, so you are getting a 0.02/70 = 1/350 return per hand. and that is if you are good
carlcarl: w bigger  & bigger
Isobeutel [6k\]: do u play at PKR?
]
;W[cf]WL[30]OW[1]C[rstt2 [4k\]: poker room.com?
]
;B[mg]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[nf]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[lg]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[lf]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[gn]BL[30]OB[2]C[Isobeutel [6k\]: no, its a client called PKR
SLMaccabee [3k\]: no one wins .2 bb/hand
nohoper [6k\]: i played at paradisepoker
Isobeutel [6k\]: 3d poker
]
;W[in]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[im]BL[30]OB[2]C[Zuko [4k\]: p4 not good?
]
;W[hm]WL[30]OW[1]C[shad [3k\]: its jonnhy chan
gnos [6k\]: typo, you mean heads up poker?
Isobeutel [6k\]: 3-Dimensional
typohh [11k\]: yeah
nohoper [6k\]: but i retired now........poker is very boring :P
]
;B[fm]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[sg]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[rb]BL[30]OB[2]C[uzmest [2k\]: zuko, can't read p4 ?
]
;W[em]WL[30]OW[1]C[rstt2 [4k\]: making money is never boring ^^
]
;B[gl]BL[30]OB[2]C[FrozenV7 [4k?\]: work could be
]
;W[gm]WL[30]OW[1]C[rstt2 [4k\]: ah
rstt2 [4k\]: got me there
]
;B[hn]BL[30]OB[2]C[rstt2 [4k\]: tesuji?
wrongkyu [4k?\]: poker that gote work
gnos [6k\]: Typoh, that's heads up. And if your opponenet plays just as well, there's no way you can guarantee a win
Tosoko [2d\]: k7 
Pangaea [3d?\]: but they dont
]
;W[hl]WL[30]OW[1]C[gnos [6k\]: Poker has a much higher expectation when there are a lot of players.
leachy [7k\]: can uzmest read out p4?
uzmest [2k\]: p4 o4 q4 l4 ?
typohh [11k\]: gnos, part of the poker game is gameselection
nohoper [6k\]: in heads up the cards dont have a lot to do with it
]
;B[jm]BL[30]OB[2]C[crazyboy [4d\]: why dont w k7?
Pangaea [3d?\]: not really
gnos [6k\]: typohh, quite true
boTbl4 [5k\]: k7 h8 l6 
leachy [7k\]: yes uzmest....but best to just say that
]
;W[ro]WL[30]OW[1]C[ebann [4k\]: K5
]
;B[rp]BL[30]OB[2]C[uzmest [2k\]: sry
]
;W[fn]WL[30]OW[1]C[Pangaea [3d?\]: u dont have to play anyone in heads up... find the fish an you have easy money, cuz u have the fish alone, not sharing with 4 others
imworking1 [2k\]: poker is not gambling. U just need to explain it to woman wo played the final table in recente european poker tour. AQ against A9...all in and lose...bye bye
carlcarl: k7 l6 p4
]
;B[lq]BL[30]OB[2]C[rstt2 [4k\]: oh
rstt2 [4k\]: lucy jones?
boTbl4 [5k\]: k7 l6 h8 
]
;W[op]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[kr]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ff]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[dg]BL[30]OB[2]C[ndbateam [11k\]: white win
]
;W[gg]WL[30]OW[1]C[leachy [7k\]: no worries ;) just keeping kgs friendly 
]
;B[gh]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[gf]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[hh]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[go]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ho]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fo]WL[30]OW[1]C[gnos [6k\]: Pangaea, do the math. what's better, 4 fish versus 3 strong players, or 1 strong player versus one fish who might just win on luck?
]
;B[es]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[gp]WL[30]OW[1]C[carlcarl: h8 p4
nohoper [6k\]: w won with left side alone hours ago
]
;B[gq]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[cs]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ep]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ls]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[fj]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fk]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[gi]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fi]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ma]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fa]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[fj]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ij]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ii]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fi]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ib]BL[30]OB[2]C[SLMaccabee [3k\]: getting heads up with a fish is hard though
]
;W[ga]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[fj]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[gk]WL[30]OW[1]C[Pangaea [3d?\]: i like me vs the fish much more, and math will also proove that... if i anylise for my situation
]
;B[eo]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[do]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ch]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[bh]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ks]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ns]WL[30]OW[1]C[DanielTom [4d\]: poor kghin :(
Pangaea [3d?\]: not so hard
gnos [6k\]: Okay, tell me your premises so I can analyse it myself.
]
;B[pp]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[rk]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[so]BL[30]OB[2]C[SLMaccabee [3k\]: how do you find a fish to play heads up?
]
;W[rn]WL[30]OW[1]C[rstt2 [4k\]: train it
]
;B[ps]BL[30]OB[2]C[DapperDan [5k\]: holy crap white is good
Pangaea [3d?\]: go to the right platform... lots of fish around
typohh [11k\]: you play against many opponents, and stop playing against those who are too good
]
;W[jk]WL[30]OW[1]C[FMSH [-\]:  why b keep?
]
;B[kk]BL[30]OB[2]C[ebann [4k\]: W wins by how much? ~10?
]
;W[kl]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[jl]BL[30]OB[2]C[jhi: ???
]
;W[jn]WL[30]OW[1]C[perro [1d\]: ouppss
ShinoNoir [2d\]: :D
rstt2 [4k\]: oh no
hilarious [1k\]: lol
Forssaken [8k\]: lol
nohoper [6k\]: low lvl o/l poker is awash with fish
wrongkyu [4k?\]: =))
DapperDan [5k\]: dung
carlcarl: lol
kghin [8d\]: thx
GOallin [9d\]: thank u
jaewon [4k\]: what was that
DapperDan [5k\]: that was dying
gnos [6k\]: Against many opponents, with proper play the strong players should split up the money
volcano [2k\]: i'm glad I'm not the only one who does that kind of thing
Pangaea [3d?\]: play plo hu, maaany fishs
typohh [11k\]: yes, plo hu is fun
gnos [6k\]: If just 1 player takes all the chips, he must have overplayed.
gnos [6k\]: Like by bluffing too much
coldbrain [2d?\]: w +20 anyway
NorthWind [7k\]: or he's hungry
brooks [1k\]: b did that on purpose?
Liisa [1d\]: yes, it was just resignation
Pangaea [3d?\]: or the others are too scared
gnos [6k\]: Yes.
Pangaea [3d?\]: if they are, overplaying is fine
gnos [6k\]: But then the next game the others will have a strategy for calling his bluffs
anglelll [1k?\]: ah
Pangaea [3d?\]: no, funny thing is they wont
gnos [6k\]: They will if they are good
Pangaea [3d?\]: sure
typohh [11k\]: thats why you play according to nash equalibrium if your opponents are good or if you dont have reads on them.
Pangaea [3d?\]: but they arent in general
volcano [2k\]: not if they ae realy good
ebann [4k\]: by my count W+28
Alenchon [7k\]: w has 1 group it seems
GOallin [9d\]: now yes
Alenchon [7k\]: w seemed to limit b everywhere
gnos [6k\]: Right, and if 3 out of 7 players play according to nash equilibrium, it is very likely all of those three will come out ahead.
Alenchon [7k\]: good use of sacrifice stones for sente
Pangaea [3d?\]: not if 2 of teh remaining are pros
GOallin [9d\]: nash equilibrium?
Pangaea [3d?\]: cuz they wont play accordinmg to nash
Pangaea [3d?\]: and still own u
Alenchon [7k\]: Nash was theorist of game theory
gnos [6k\]: Pangaea, if they still own you while you play according to Nash Equilibrium, then you haven't been playing Nash Equilibrium
typohh [11k\]: nash equalibrium in is a way of playing where no other way will produce a better result, assuming opponent knows your playstyle and playesa perfect counter strategy
typohh [11k\]: ofcourse, noone ever knows ur strategy perfectly, nor can come up with a perfect counter strategy, but its a safe way to play until you find a weakness in opponents strategy that you can exploit
GOallin [9d\]: sounds good
gnos [6k\]: Yes, and the only reason even to look for that weakness is to get a higher payout
typohh [11k\]: then again, the exact nash equalibrium for poker isnt known, but its easy to come up with some strategies that are atleast very close to it.
Pangaea [3d?\]: nope
Pangaea [3d?\]: well for sit and gos and boring stuff
Pangaea [3d?\]: not for plo 6max or plo hu
typohh [11k\]: pangaea, nash equalibrium isnt only for push or fold icm calculations, you can also play multistreet nash equalibrium strategies, and in cash games.
Pangaea [3d?\]: yeah, in theorie u could
Pangaea [3d?\]: but its not that easy
typohh [11k\]: indeed not
typohh [11k\]: but in general, valuebet best 30%, bluff worst 15%, call best 50% of the remaining hands, gets quite close
typohh [11k\]: drawing hands ofcourse add alot of complexity to that strategy
Pangaea [3d?\]: oO
Pangaea [3d?\]: way to easy thinking
Pangaea [3d?\]: easy exploitable
typohh [11k\]: ofcourse, those numbers are vs opponents range
typohh [11k\]: so how would u exploit that strategy?
Pangaea [3d?\]: thats not really a strategy, what you posted
Pangaea [3d?\]: whats with betsizes, what format are we talking about?
typohh [11k\]: I guess not, its a way of thinking how to balance ranges
typohh [11k\]: holdem, as in plo u just have too much draws for that strategy to work
typohh [11k\]: as I said, draws complicate things
Pangaea [3d?\]: thats why pros like plo
Pangaea [3d?\]: holdem is boring
Pangaea [3d?\]: if u dont play extremly deep
Pangaea [3d?\]: (>250bb)
typohh [11k\]: well, it only adds more levels of preflop betting
typohh [11k\]: but rarely changes much postflop action after 150bb, as you cant get it allin postflop anyways unless ur opponent helps out
Pangaea [3d?\]: never watched pros, have u? well i guess u call that helping, but u can force them with the correct style
typohh [11k\]: I play poker for a living..
Pangaea [3d?\]: so?
gnos [6k\]: typoh, is SAGE a good approximation?
typohh [11k\]: so yes, I do watch poker alot, inlucluding railing highstakes
typohh [11k\]: sage is a very close aproximation for push fold strategy
gnos [6k\]: If not, what is the best approximation in Hold 'em?
Pangaea [3d?\]: ok, than u should agree... they do geht the money in relativly often
gnos [6k\]: That would be heads up you mean?
Pangaea [3d?\]: even if they are really deep
typohh [11k\]: no, play 300bb deep and its only once every few hundred hands that u get it all-in
typohh [11k\]: sage is only for hu
gnos [6k\]: What about with more than two players? What's the best approximation for multiplayer?
Pangaea [3d?\]: well in nl2k/nl5k yes
typohh [11k\]: sage doesnt however take into account if your opponent is worse player than u
Pangaea [3d?\]: but not in the crazy steks
Pangaea [3d?\]: stakes
typohh [11k\]: gnos, google icm nash
gnos [6k\]: Ok, thanks
Pangaea [3d?\]: anyway nl is boring
typohh [11k\]: I guess to some extent
typohh [11k\]: tho u get better edge at nl than plo is ur playing against a fish
gnos [6k\]: When you talk about playing 300 bb's deep... you don't mean that your strategy would actually require sitting through that many hands to be profitable, right?
typohh [11k\]: Im not sure I understand what ur asking..
gnos [6k\]: Well, I would not call making a 2% profit after 300 bb's profitable
typohh [11k\]: if you play well, and choose your opponents well, you earn around 20bb every 100 hands, thats about the best anyone can do
typohh [11k\]: and that is assuming stacks deeper than 100bb
gnos [6k\]: 100 hands is more reasonable
typohh [11k\]: it doesnt matter if u play 1 hand
gnos [6k\]: Of course, it's a ratio
gnos [6k\]: But if you quit before you make your profit, you've lost bankroll money
typohh [11k\]: huh?
Pangaea [3d?\]: 20 bb , lol
gnos [6k\]: Well, chance doesn't allow you to always profit immediately
Pangaea [3d?\]: noooo way
typohh [11k\]: you can easily play a strategy that makes 0.02bb per hand, and play for 30000 hands and still make a loss because you have had bad luck for a month
typohh [11k\]: typically around 50k - 100k hands allow u to get some stability into what you earn
Pangaea [3d?\]: show me one graph where anyone has 20bb over 50k+ handy
Pangaea [3d?\]: s
gnos [6k\]: That kind of bad luck for a month strikes me as statistically improbable.
gnos [6k\]: I see
typohh [11k\]: most ppl dont understand just how incredible variance in poker is, you need to play ALOT to get even a reasonably low variance
typohh [11k\]: let me see if I can find someone with 20bb/100
gnos [6k\]: I see
gnos [6k\]: That means you need a big bankroll to start of course.
Pangaea [3d?\]: try
gnos [6k\]: So, make sure you find games with fish until you get a bankroll that big.
gnos [6k\]: Or, just play with fish anyway
typohh [11k\]: Phil Galfond is 4.2bb/100, and he playes the highest stakes, surely on lower levels with more fish u can find players around 20bb/100
Pangaea [3d?\]: at lowest maybe
typohh [11k\]: well, Im thinking even nl100
Pangaea [3d?\]: but nlo500 and up 20bb is way to much
typohh [11k\]: as I said, big part is good tableselection
Pangaea [3d?\]: nl400
Pangaea [3d?\]: even for nl100 i think 20bb is to much
typohh [11k\]: gnos, u typically want to have a bankroll that is minium 5000bb
Pangaea [3d?\]: well, gotta go
typohh [11k\]: othwise u can easily go broke on a bad month or two
typohh [11k\]: nice talking to u
gnos [6k\]: Yeah, but you're not going to have that starting out.
Pangaea [3d?\]: good luck further on .. ;D
gnos [6k\]: Bye Pangaea
typohh [11k\]: sure u r gnos
typohh [11k\]: just start at low enough limit
gnos [6k\]: Online you mean...
gnos [6k\]: Right?
typohh [11k\]: yes
gnos [6k\]: Are there games like that outside the internet?
typohh [11k\]: play a game where big blind is $0.02, that way u need a bankroll of.. $100
typohh [11k\]: not really, lowest live games are typically $1-2
gnos [6k\]: And then the bankroll is 10,000
typohh [11k\]: Im off too, cu
gnos [6k\]: Bye
])
