(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[300]OT[3x30 byo-yomi]
PW[doodle]PB[Vip]WR[9d]BR[9d]DT[2009-09-11]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[doodle [9d?\]: hi
Vip [9d?\]: hi
]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]BL[295.56]
;W[dd]WL[299.34]
;B[pq]BL[294.008]
;W[dp]WL[298.451]
;B[fq]BL[293.221]
;W[cn]WL[297.911]
;B[ip]BL[292.081]
;W[po]WL[294.899]
;B[oo]BL[290.964]
;W[qq]WL[293.384]
;B[pp]BL[290.152]
;W[qp]WL[293.132]C[Ben10 [6k\]: when they will become solid ranked?
]
;B[on]BL[288.5]
;W[qn]WL[292.12]
;B[pl]BL[287.848]C[mirdolatte [2d\]: rage
play234 [-\]: both have ? in their rank, so playing each other won't solidify rank
]
;W[kq]WL[272.308]
;B[pr]BL[280.221]
;W[rl]WL[270.584]
;B[ko]BL[272.681]
;W[ir]WL[268.1]C[Ben10 [6k\]: they are solidiying the " ? " ?
]
;B[hq]BL[270.677]C[WeimStyle [2d\]: Yes, but now when one of them gets solid, the other will too.
]
;W[mq]WL[253.953]
;B[nr]BL[265.473]
;W[np]WL[251.653]
;B[mr]BL[261.045]C[YeknomGib [4k\]: When one dies, the other will die, too.
Ben10 [6k\]: lol
LearnFast [5k?\]: Vip must be angry now throwing away a won game
meuns [1k\]: yes
]
;W[mo]WL[188.33]C[Warfreak2 [5d\]: it's move 25 and he already threw away a won game?
YeknomGib [4k\]: Warfreak2 is too strong to understand
LearnFast [5k?\]: you dont remember they just played?
Ben10 [6k\]: I don't think s/he is angry; at this level, win or lose is not important
meuns [1k\]: the last game...
workforce [2d\]: he only won this so far: Throwing away is for later
meuns [1k\]: warfreak is a red fish, he forgot thecaptain
LearnFast [5k?\]: Ben10 i think it is :)
Warfreak2 [5d\]: captain always wins
meuns [1k\]: :D
]
;B[lr]BL[191.88]C[Naysmith [1d\]: sneaky kgs... hides 9d? games
]
;W[kp]WL[152.857]C[Ben10 [6k\]: for the system, a 9d? is weaker then a solid 30k
goal3k [1k\]: there are 9d? games probably 24 hours a day...we just cant see thwm
]
;B[jo]BL[121.537]C[staracraft: CGobanh includes? in sorting
]
;W[mm]WL[137.921]
;B[lo]BL[107.458]
;W[no]WL[135.369]C[Naysmith [1d\]: you mean you can toggle that?
BOFH [3k?\]: yes
pwnz0r [1d\]: there should be an option in sorting by rank to mix solid and ? together
]
;B[op]BL[96.867]
;W[mk]WL[130.177]
;B[qj]BL[90.243]
;W[dr]WL[125.992]C[BOFH [3k?\]: wms said no to my suggestion
]
;B[kk]BL[85.011]
;W[mi]WL[124.272]
;B[rk]BL[77.515]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: figures
HelloHello [5k\]: they used to be all mixed together
]
;W[qr]WL[119.513]
;B[ki]BL[70.136]
;W[mg]WL[117.82]
;B[mc]BL[64.585]
;W[kh]WL[100.884]
;B[jh]BL[58.072]
;W[kg]WL[99.676]C[Naysmith [1d\]: I'm ok if they just let us write the sorting script
]
;B[li]BL[56.688]
;W[lh]WL[98.708]C[Ben10 [6k\]: well, there is a escape, mark the 9d? as buddies, they will appear at the top of the list; at least you will know that they are online
pwnz0r [1d\]: hahaha, you wish
Naysmith [1d\]: I don't want all mixed together, just 7d+ :)
]
;B[nh]BL[41.232]
;W[mh]WL[96.804]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: wms keeps it closed and tight
]
;B[ji]BL[35.936]
;W[qd]WL[92.98]
;B[qe]BL[33.991]
;W[re]WL[89.59]
;B[qc]BL[30.199]
;W[rd]WL[88.463]
;B[pe]BL[28.062]C[weiqidevil [-\]: m12 shape looks funny xD
]
;W[rc]WL[87.008]
;B[qb]BL[26.069]C[Naysmith [1d\]: hehe... for once I'm for open source... :)
]
;W[qg]WL[86.454]
;B[pg]BL[23.182]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: some guys using an "upgraded" client were banned
]
;W[qf]WL[82.016]C[weiqidevil [-\]: like a fork
]
;B[pf]BL[18.725]
;W[qh]WL[81.129]C[Ben10 [6k\]: right nay
]
;B[nl]BL[15.34]
;W[ml]WL[78.01]
;B[mj]BL[14.394]
;W[nj]WL[77.044]
;B[lj]BL[12.561]
;W[nk]WL[76.485]
;B[ni]BL[11.375]C[Ben10 [6k\]: why not open source kgs and let community propose and implement features?
danigabi [6d\]: i remember when the change was done
]
;W[oi]WL[62.303]
;B[ph]BL[6.806]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: well there is one thing ben
danigabi [6d\]: it was long way back, when kgs had a lot less users, and there was always a guy losing at 5h with a 4d, and he suddenly was 9d? :)
]
;W[pk]WL[35.649]C[HelloHello [5k\]: back then the ranking system was even more messed up, believe it or not :)
Naysmith [1d\]: dani, that's an obvious bug in the rank system
]
;B[ql]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[qk]WL[29.875]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: you could abuse the client and destabilise the server
alter [1k\]: ben10, wms is paranoid about cheating, so i guess he will never opensource the client
pwnz0r [1d\]: and about that he is right
Naysmith [1d\]: not if you just can customize the sorting script...
Warfreak2 [5d\]: easier to cheat if the client is closed source
goal3k [1k\]: who is this wms?
alter [1k\]: too bad, cgoban2 was GPL
]
;B[rj]BL[30]OB[2]C[HelloHello [5k\]: beginner goes away for a while and returns to see he's 6d? or something:)  but maybe that still happens:)
]
;W[rm]WL[24.621]C[danigabi [6d\]: no Naysmith, its not a  bug
danigabi [6d\]: now kgs doesnt give you a solid rakn for losses, but it used to do it
]
;B[pi]BL[30]OB[2]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: he is wrong about saying no to lots of features proposed by community
Naysmith [1d\]: well, ok... it's bad design then
]
;W[ol]WL[2.137]C[HelloHello [5k\]: you don't need the source, just free time...
YeknomGib [4k\]: fj [8d\] has the creepiest profile picture
danigabi [6d\]: not really.. i think its ok..
]
;B[om]BL[30]OB[2]C[alter [1k\]: he cannot implement everything, but it could allow us to contirbute
xDragon [14k?\]: fj is an animal
]
;W[nm]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[pj]BL[30]OB[2]C[Ben10 [6k\]: well, he does not need to open the ranking system.
]
;W[ok]WL[30]OW[3]C[weiqidevil [-\]: fj is cool!
]
;B[pm]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[kr]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[lp]BL[30]OB[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: to give rank for losses, dani?
YeknomGib [4k\]: fj is cool, but his pic is scary
]
;W[lq]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[nq]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[mp]WL[30]OW[3]C[Naysmith [1d\]: but then how do you stop the 9d? abuse?
danigabi [6d\]: by not caring about it. It really doesnt matter
Yoseki [2k\]: you mean if you lose to 7d you then become 6d?
]
;B[qs]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[rr]WL[30]OW[3]C[danigabi [6d\]: right, Yoseki
]
;B[ls]BL[30]OB[2]C[Opul3nce [7k\]: Nice
]
;W[km]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[jm]BL[30]OB[2]C[xDragon [14k?\]: thatd be the only wya ill ever reach dan imo
]
;W[ld]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[lc]BL[30]OB[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: wait till april 1st, xdragon
Warfreak2 [5d\]: with that attitude
]
;W[kd]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[sg]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[sf]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[si]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[rb]WL[30]OW[3]C[Yoseki [2k\]: you can get to 5k and then stop playing, soon you will drift to 1-2d
YeknomGib [4k\]: Don't worry, xDragon. Many of us will never reach 1d!
maxp73 [4d\]: wow doodle !
]
;B[ne]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ra]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[id]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[kc]WL[30]OW[3]C[Pathway [-\]: your mom will never reach 1 dan
]
;B[if]BL[30]OB[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: I'm not sure 5k would drift all the way to 1d and still be solid
xDragon [14k?\]: probably, she deosnt play and shes middle age
Yoseki [2k\]: not solid
meuns [1k\]: 1d is nothing...
xevad [2k\]: your mom goes to college
xDragon [14k?\]: yes but its still a milestone
Yoseki [2k\]: 1k is negative...
xDragon [14k?\]: for many
Pathway [-\]: I think 3dan would be hip
alter [1k\]: its seems b need to kill something ? 
]
;W[nd]WL[30]OW[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: not solid doesn't count :)
]
;B[md]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[nf]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[ng]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[me]WL[30]OW[2]C[xevad [2k\]: if 1d is nothing and 1k is negative.. then wouldn't that make 1k something
]
;B[oe]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[kb]WL[30]OW[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: yea... something bad :)
]
;B[le]BL[30]OB[2]C[Yoseki [2k\]: i saw 5k (Hu) become a 2d? for a day and then back to 5k ;0
]
;W[mf]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[nb]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[hc]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[fc]BL[30]OB[2]C[xevad [2k\]: I used to be 1d
fokschaap [2d\]: me too
]
;W[kl]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[jl]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[cf]WL[30]OW[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: meh... 1d is hard
xevad [2k\]: that was pretty nice I could have rank drifted all the way to solid 3d if I was careful
]
;B[dc]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[cc]WL[30]OW[2]C[Yoseki [2k\]: you can reach 1d if you study
]
;B[ed]BL[30]OB[2]C[Ben10 [6k\]: IGS ranking system is better?
]
;W[de]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[cb]BL[30]OB[2]C[DemonMagic [1d\]: you can also reach 1d if you don't study
]
;W[db]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[eb]BL[30]OB[2]C[PAG2 [-\]: not better, different
]
;W[ec]WL[30]OW[2]C[weiqidevil [-\]: i never understood the IGS ranking system
]
;B[ro]BL[30]OB[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: you can reach 1d if you don't study as well, Yoseki
fokschaap [2d\]: I think there's not hing wrong with the kgs ranking system
Ben10 [6k\]: so, it has problems too
]
;W[qo]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[dc]BL[30]OB[2]C[Pathway [-\]: @DemonMagic that is my plan =)
xevad [2k\]: it is just slightly more difficult
Naysmith [1d\]: yes
xevad [2k\]: I have been on the non study path for a few years now
Yoseki [2k\]: yes but then it depends on talent
Naysmith [1d\]: and slower
goal3k [1k\]: im 3 k without studying
xDragon [14k?\]: im the opposite. i study too much
PAG2 [-\]: As long as a ranking system is consistent (1 stone difference per rank in a specific zone of Kyu / dans) then the ranking system is ok.
]
;W[je]WL[30]OW[1]C[xDragon [14k?\]: everything except tsumego
]
;B[da]BL[30]OB[2]C[DemonMagic [1d\]: i look at studying as getting in the way of playing to learn, so just playing is what i do ;P
]
;W[di]WL[30]OW[1]C[Pathway [-\]: 3k without studying was very easy, it just took some time...
]
;B[ck]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[cj]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[dk]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fi]WL[30]OW[1]C[Naysmith [1d\]: I just play for fun now
]
;B[cm]BL[30]OB[2]C[xevad [2k\]: I became 2k when I realized I should play only when I have been drinking
]
;W[dn]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[cd]BL[30]OB[2]C[xevad [2k\]: that gave the biggest boost in strength
pwnz0r [1d\]: i think ranking was better before
]
;W[bc]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[bd]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[be]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[bb]BL[30]OB[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: soo... you boosted your strength and lost 2 ranks?
PAG2 [-\]: pwnz0r... that's what my gandpa said.. "it was better before"..
ziggo [1d\]: ranking changed? i didn't notice
grosnul [1k\]: xevad: when you realise it was not necessary the best thing to do, you'l be dan :-p
]
;W[gn]WL[30]OW[1]C[xevad [2k\]: kgs 2 system did seem appropriate sort of.. but if you think about it, the change was better
]
;B[bl]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[in]WL[30]OW[1]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: when i look at the rank histogram i can't stop wondering, 'did everybody just got so strong??'
]
;B[jn]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[bj]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[bn]BL[30]OB[2]C[xevad [2k\]: handicaps seem accurate
]
;W[bo]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[fl]BL[30]OB[2]C[ziggo [1d\]: hm weren't you 2d xevad?
Pathway [3k\]: I have always heard that the handi system was best for the one giving handi on KGS
]
;W[hl]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[fn]BL[30]OB[2]C[xevad [2k\]: ziggo uhh.. no.. I am a weak pitiful 3k pretending to be 2k
]
;W[fo]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[gm]BL[30]OB[2]C[danigabi [6d\]: the opposite pathway
]
;W[go]WL[30]OW[1]C[ziggo [1d\]: i must be confusing your name sorry
]
;B[hm]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[io]WL[30]OW[1]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: a few years back main population had about 12-13k rating, now 4-5k is the most common. its riddiculous
]
;B[jp]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[hj]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[gi]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fj]WL[30]OW[1]C[danigabi [6d\]: what? lol i doubt so pwnz0r
xevad [2k\]: yeah I was 12k for a LONG time
]
;B[bp]BL[30]OB[2]C[xevad [2k\]: about as long as I have been 2k
Yoseki [2k\]: why is not 12-13k ridiculous?
]
;W[ao]WL[30]OW[1]C[KnifeEye [6k\]: i wonder if there was a big pulse of players after hikaru that disrupted things
]
;B[gj]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fk]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[en]BL[30]OB[2]C[xevad [2k\]: people that seemed to make it out of the abyss of 12k range
Naysmith [1d\]: I was 13k for a long time
pwnz0r [1d\]: here you are danigabi http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSRankHistogram
yoyoma [1d\]: Let us decide which range of arbitrary numbers is the most non-ridiculous
xevad [2k\]: are 2d or stronger now
KnifeEye [6k\]: making the main body temporarily weak due to the number of beginners
yoyoma [1d\]: opinions?
xDragon [14k?\]: i might have fallen into the 12k abyss
]
;W[os]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[eo]BL[30]OB[2]C[Yoseki [2k\]: i don;t ahve time to watch the game, just reading the kib
mirdolatte [2d\]: looking grim for w
xevad [2k\]: xDragon no probably not
]
;W[ps]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[or]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[rs]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ns]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[cp]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[gk]BL[30]OB[2]C[xevad [2k\]: there were various ranks lumped together within the 12-13k range
]
;W[ep]WL[30]OW[1]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: ha, if you look at confident (solid) ranks its even worse 2-3k is the peak
danigabi [6d\]: man
]
;B[fp]BL[30]OB[2]C[mirdolatte [2d\]: w just lost
]
;W[gh]WL[30]OW[1]C[Naysmith [1d\]: wow
danigabi [6d\]: people are still my kibitzes. "looking grim" is my trademark
alter [1k\]: bad timesuji
]
;B[hi]BL[30]OB[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: the median is at 2k now, it seems
]
;W[hh]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ih]BL[30]OB[2]C[mirdolatte [2d\]: lol sry, didn't know :)
]
;W[gf]WL[30]OW[1]C[danigabi [6d\]: the other day someone said at one of MY games. Thats plain insulting
]
;B[ib]BL[30]OB[2]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: yeah, and double digit kyus above 20k are rare as 9d :)
]
;W[ic]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[hb]BL[30]OB[2]C[Ben10 [6k\]: mirdolatte: you can still use it, just "looking grim©"
DnFBlitz [1k\]: no no, you need the TM symbol
]
;W[qa]WL[30]OW[1]C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: it's not copyright, it's his trademark
Ben10 [6k\]: oh
Ben10 [6k\]: rright
]
;B[pb]BL[30]OB[2]C[sheery [?\]: imo the 12k being median seemed more normal .. was on par with real life rankings
xevad [2k\]: http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSRankHistogram%2FData at the bottom of the page data is given for 2009
pwnz0r [1d\]: ofc it was more normal
]
;W[ce]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ac]BL[30]OB[2]C[xevad [2k\]: but it does not seem like anyone has created the proper graph for it yet
Pathway [3k\]: not really... the average club rank is 4k
]
;W[fe]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ie]BL[30]OB[2]C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: looking grim™
]
;W[lb]WL[30]OW[1]C[mirdolatte [2d\]: lol
Ben10 [6k\]: what's the sequence DnF?
]
;B[mb]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[jf]WL[30]OW[1]C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: oh i copy pasted it from wikipedia
goal3k [1k\]: but what about peoplewho have like 10 accoutns with the same rank?
]
;B[jc]BL[30]OB[2]C[Ben10 [6k\]: ok
]
;W[jb]WL[30]OW[1]C[Naysmith [1d\]: oh, right
DnFBlitz [1k\]: i like the idea, Ben10 :)
]
;B[hg]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[gg]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[jd]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[hd]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[he]BL[30]OB[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: multi-account users will not be equally distributed
pwnz0r [1d\]: so according to this last set of data there is only 1 8d on the server?
]
;W[lf]WL[30]OW[1]C[Naysmith [1d\]: so maybe they're biasing the histogram a bit towars dan level
]
;B[er]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[gd]WL[30]OW[1]C[yoyoma [1d\]: pwnzor:  45=6p
]
;B[gc]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ee]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[cr]BL[30]OB[2]C[pwnz0r [1d\]: ahh
]
;W[ds]WL[30]OW[1]C[Naysmith [1d\]: by the way... we had a 9d game here
]
;B[dq]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[eq]WL[30]OW[1]C[grosnul [1k\]: orly?
grosnul [1k\]: :)
]
;B[gr]BL[30]OB[2]C[Naysmith [1d\]: I think so, yes
Vip [9d?\]: Thanks
grosnul [1k\]: not anymore :p
grosnul [1k\]: gg vip ^^
doodle [9d\]: thx
Ben10 [6k\]: cool
pwnz0r [1d\]: oh
Ben10 [6k\]: rematch
Opul3nce [7k\]: c3 m6 ?
goal3k [1k\]: both stable
Naysmith [1d\]: ok, one is solid now, if they rematch, we'll know
Naysmith [1d\]: ^^
pwnz0r [1d\]: both are
dupre [1d?\]: both are chinese?
PAG2 [-\]: 4qam in china now
yoyoma [1d\]: They successfully bootstrapped each other  :)
alter [1k\]: why resign ?
oryx [1k?\]: Isn't W ok?
Opul3nce [7k\]: alter
Opul3nce [7k\]: n5 is dead
alter [1k\]: i dont think so
Opul3nce [7k\]: c3 m6 
alter [1k\]: oh g2 threat n5
alter [1k\]: ok yes
alter [1k\]: thanks i saw m6 l1 miai for life, but g2 threat on 2 groups, ok :)
])
