(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]HA[4]KM[0.50]TM[1200]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
PW[onelove]PB[pancancan]WR[8d]BR[4d]DT[2009-08-29]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]AB[dd][pd][dp][pp]RE[B+21.50]
;W[qf]WL[1197.164]C[pancancan [4d\]: hi
onelove [8d\]: hi
]
;B[qh]BL[1188.393]
;W[of]WL[1193.386]C[mperahia [3k\]: poor love...8 losses tosay
Fajnymis [3d\]: maybe now..
]
;B[nc]BL[1184.08]
;W[qn]WL[1192.403]C[Fajnymis [3d\]: 4d should be easy prey
]
;B[qk]BL[1166.626]
;W[np]WL[1190.858]
;B[pn]BL[1163.435]
;W[qq]WL[1186.132]
;B[qo]BL[1138.538]
;W[pq]WL[1181.568]
;B[lq]BL[1133.181]
;W[nr]WL[1177.106]
;B[rd]BL[1124.523]
;W[qm]WL[1173.963]
;B[pm]BL[1109.723]
;W[ro]WL[1172.611]
;B[ql]BL[1103.987]
;W[fq]WL[1161.21]
;B[iq]BL[1092.66]
;W[dn]WL[1122.411]
;B[fp]BL[1070.788]
;W[cq]WL[1117.832]
;B[cp]BL[1052.551]
;W[gp]WL[1113.63]
;B[eq]BL[1040.553]
;W[fo]WL[1110.794]
;B[ep]BL[1038.189]
;W[gr]WL[1109.65]
;B[go]BL[1034.205]
;W[hp]WL[1107.686]
;B[fn]BL[1032.001]
;W[er]WL[1105.597]
;B[dr]BL[1028.098]
;W[bn]WL[1085.925]
;B[bo]BL[1021.778]
;W[eo]WL[1069.926]C[RayTomes [1d\]: e6 d5 c6 
]
;B[cn]BL[997.954]
;W[en]WL[1067.275]
;B[cm]BL[970.124]
;W[fm]WL[1063.437]
;B[es]BL[938.586]
;W[fc]WL[1056.132]
;B[cf]BL[927.852]
;W[lc]WL[1051.449]
;B[ic]BL[916.471]
;W[fe]WL[1041.812]
;B[ie]BL[911.405]
;W[nd]WL[1039.474]
;B[md]BL[887.199]
;W[mc]WL[1019.467]
;B[ne]BL[879.389]
;W[od]WL[1017.524]
;B[oe]BL[875.636]
;W[oc]WL[1015.823]
;B[pc]BL[870.682]
;W[ob]WL[1014.712]
;B[le]BL[836.345]
;W[pb]WL[1011.927]
;B[qb]BL[824.681]
;W[pe]WL[1010.594]
;B[pa]BL[807.807]
;W[nb]WL[1006.572]
;B[qe]BL[799.285]
;W[pf]WL[1002.253]
;B[rf]BL[796.764]
;W[nf]WL[984.679]
;B[me]BL[794.938]
;W[pi]WL[972.277]
;B[ph]BL[770.357]
;W[lg]WL[961.103]
;B[nh]BL[727.676]
;W[ke]WL[947.806]
;B[kf]BL[694.798]
;W[kd]WL[941.502]
;B[mg]BL[682.407]
;W[oh]WL[938.315]
;B[oi]BL[666.794]
;W[jf]WL[936.709]
;B[kg]BL[632.712]
;W[if]WL[930.271]
;B[hf]BL[620.67]
;W[hg]WL[924.514]
;B[gf]BL[612.634]
;W[dc]WL[922.122]
;B[cc]BL[602.124]
;W[de]WL[915.277]
;B[cd]BL[554.826]
;W[eg]WL[910.741]
;B[gg]BL[545.572]
;W[ih]WL[903.827]C[Firststep [7k\]: how many time need to be 8d kgs? average?
]
;B[hh]BL[533.455]
;W[ig]WL[902.538]C[Firststep [7k\]: 5 years?
Request [4k\]: may be all your life )
Kanin [-\]: usually more
]
;B[gh]BL[489.59]C[bejenie [10k\]: 1.5 days :)
]
;W[ei]WL[896.816]C[sfrex [2k\]: high dan need talent
]
;B[ii]BL[481.394]
;W[ji]WL[895.683]C[Request [4k\]: yep if you 
Request [4k\]: rapyuta
Firststep [7k\]: more that 5 years?
Firststep [7k\]: hmm
Fatal [5k\]: thats not a question about time.. i think..
ovidiust [9k\]: 1 game, if you beat a 8 dan :P
]
;B[jj]BL[445.872]C[placek [1k\]: i am playing 4,5 years :-). i guess its matter of talent
]
;W[ij]WL[890.627]C[SaurusDNA [7k\]: Most 8 dan playing over 20 years
]
;B[hi]BL[443.796]
;W[je]WL[888.953]C[sfrex [2k\]: 3d below  time n tranning can do
Nitrogenn [4k\]: Oo
Dexterity [2k?\]: if you practice go 24/7 and do not have talent then you can become a high dan
SaurusDNA [7k\]: Most 8 dan start very young
Request [4k\]: Ну и вопросы у тебя, степ )
Firststep [7k\]: хехе
Firststep [7k\]: я хо 8й дан)
Firststep [7k\]: ну на крайняк 7й..
Firststep [7k\]: ))
]
;B[fl]BL[386.321]C[Denniskutl [2d\]: amount of work is a better indicator than amount of time, i think
]
;W[ik]WL[880.355]C[Request [4k\]: глянь на roln )
Firststep [7k\]: i'm playing 6 month.. i don't have teacher and can beat 2k
]
;B[hl]BL[358.896]C[Firststep [7k\]: but next step for 1k-1d very hard)
Mihan [3k\]: no you cannot beat a 2k. 
Dexterity [2k?\]: yep
Firststep [7k\]: sure?
Mihan [3k\]: and it gets really hard after 5k ish. 
Firststep [7k\]: )
]
;W[kh]WL[839.421]C[Firststep [7k\]: nooo
Firststep [7k\]: that hard for you
Dexterity [2k?\]: maybe with handi
Firststep [7k\]: oh..
Firststep [7k\]: see my ifno
shhrdh: My friend started to play the game and took 1 month to get to 2d from nothing
Firststep [7k\]: if him korean kid that possible
Firststep [7k\]: i'm talking about us ^^
Request [4k\]: and he don't sleep and eat and visit bathroom
Mihan [3k\]: his nothign is probably my 1dan> 
Firststep [7k\]: lol
Dexterity [2k?\]: if practices it 8h a day then it is possible
Mihan [3k\]: from 30k to 2d? nah. 
SaurusDNA [7k\]: Firtstep, how old are you? Younger = quicker improvement.
Dexterity [2k?\]: it is the age long question of age
Fatal [5k\]: you need only a big basement and goban with stones.. 
Firststep [7k\]: if don't have teacher.. and from 30k to 2d 1 month.. i don't believe in that
Fatal [5k\]: hups i mean a very small basement ..with rats.. than the kid learns faster.. 
startgo1 [3k\]: 1 month from 30k to 10k maybe
Dexterity [2k?\]: onelove has strange ideas
startgo1 [3k\]: but 2d
shhrdh: He only played games, reviewed them by himself and read go books
Firststep [7k\]: hmm
Firststep [7k\]: that more possible... but about 3 month
Firststep [7k\]: for me
ovidiust [9k\]: how old is he?
]
;B[kj]BL[127.047]C[startgo1 [3k\]: he lie to you
Firststep [7k\]: i'm don't read book
shhrdh: 16 years
Mihan [3k\]: you should
]
;W[il]WL[806.231]C[ovidiust [9k\]: if what you say is true then in mayebe 2 years he will be a pro :)
]
;B[im]BL[110.774]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: that is possible
]
;W[jm]WL[793.936]C[Mihan [3k\]: nah. he was just boasting. 
shhrdh: by a friend?
Fatal [5k\]: when he gets out of the basement.. 
Dexterity [2k?\]: you get these 10year old 2ps...
]
;B[hn]BL[78.189]
;W[ho]WL[785.351]C[Mihan [3k\]: who start playing from 4yo
]
;B[jl]BL[33.91]C[ovidiust [9k\]: 8d on kgs is like 1p right?
Dexterity [2k?\]: but if youhave somebody really really talented...
]
;W[jk]WL[775.436]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: you cannot compare
]
;B[kl]BL[13.785]
;W[in]WL[772.052]
;B[hm]BL[6.353]
;W[kk]WL[770.534]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: pros play better with lots of time...
SaurusDNA [7k\]: Would you say that pro is like grandmaster in chess, but 8 dan is like IM?
]
;B[hk]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[hj]WL[755.948]C[Mihan [3k\]: 8d may or may not be pro level.  hard to cpmpare. 
]
;B[gj]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[lk]WL[753.766]C[Firststep [7k\]: but 8d can beat 1p
ovidiust [9k\]: what is the higher rank one can be on kgs?
Fatal [5k\]: pro s are no hobby player.. thats hard work.. thats the difference
Firststep [7k\]: i'm sure... for beat any kgs dan.. you need to study pro games
Dexterity [2k?\]: there life is about go
]
;B[gn]BL[30]OB[4]
;W[jn]WL[747.212]
;B[io]BL[30]OB[4]
;W[ip]WL[734.94]
;B[jo]BL[30]OB[4]
;W[jp]WL[731.054]
;B[ko]BL[30]OB[4]
;W[km]WL[730.031]
;B[ll]BL[30]OB[4]
;W[lm]WL[728.317]
;B[ml]BL[30]OB[4]C[ovidiust [9k\]: is 8d the higher rank?
]
;W[mm]WL[726.818]C[Firststep [7k\]: no
SaurusDNA [7k\]: 9d
Dexterity [2k?\]: if pros dont get to a certain level in a short period of time then they have no future
ovidiust [9k\]: cuz i heard that amator players get to be maxmum 6d
]
;B[nl]BL[30]OB[3]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: there can be 7ds...
shhrdh: Depends on country
]
;W[lj]WL[714.256]C[ovidiust [9k\]: oh
]
;B[mo]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[no]WL[710.517]
;B[nn]BL[30]OB[3]C[Firststep [7k\]: all 9d kgs is pro
Mihan [3k\]: no
Dexterity [2k?\]: no
Firststep [7k\]: maybe not all... but 99%
Mihan [3k\]: looks like w is losing again. 
Mihan [3k\]: nope again
]
;W[mn]WL[687.018]C[Firststep [7k\]: or 95?
ovidiust [9k\]: maybe the fried shhrdh spoke of is like hikaru from hikaru no go :)
Mihan [3k\]: like 10%?
]
;B[jq]BL[30]OB[3]C[Firststep [7k\]: ha
]
;W[hq]WL[682.032]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: about 50/50
Dexterity [2k?\]: ??
]
;B[kp]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[nm]WL[680.381]C[Firststep [7k\]: i mean
Firststep [7k\]: not fake 9d
Mihan [3k\]: no. kgs are mostly westernens with almost no pro program at all. 
]
;B[rl]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[rn]WL[673.809]C[Fatal [5k\]: h2
]
;B[mj]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ol]WL[640.341]
;B[pl]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ok]WL[610.666]C[ovidiust [9k\]: o10?
]
;B[nj]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ir]WL[599.594]
;B[jr]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[fr]WL[591.837]
;B[is]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[hs]WL[587.863]
;B[hr]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[fk]WL[575.726]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: b+ res
]
;B[fj]BL[30]OB[1]C[Firststep [7k\]: w+time
]
;W[ir]WL[570.112]
;B[li]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ki]WL[566.59]
;B[hr]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[fi]WL[565.392]
;B[gi]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ir]WL[563.908]
;B[on]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[lo]WL[557.213]
;B[hr]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[qd]WL[524.846]
;B[qc]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ir]WL[490.014]C[losted [?\]: isnt N4 important for b?
]
;B[mp]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[js]WL[445.899]C[SaurusDNA [7k\]: p8 and m6 is miai
]
;B[om]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[mq]WL[443.144]
;B[lp]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[mf]WL[440.286]C[SaurusDNA [7k\]: not
]
;B[gd]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ed]WL[435.024]
;B[dh]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[dg]WL[426.89]
;B[cg]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ch]WL[425.571]
;B[di]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[fg]WL[416.933]C[ovidiust [9k\]: isn't g6 good for w?
]
;B[df]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ej]WL[412.124]
;B[ci]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[hb]WL[403.653]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: b too greedy
]
;B[hc]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ib]WL[397.616]
;B[jb]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[gb]WL[387.226]
;B[jc]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[db]WL[379.766]C[Nante [2k\]: e8?
]
;B[cb]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[el]WL[367.87]C[ovidiust [9k\]: he can g6 then e8
]
;B[gk]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[gl]WL[365.476]C[ovidiust [9k\]: the same
]
;B[dk]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ek]WL[360.757]
;B[ks]BL[30]OB[1]C[Mihan [3k\]: looka like w won a game :)
]
;W[lr]WL[351.987]
;B[is]BL[30]OB[1]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: ko
Dexterity [2k?\]: on
]
;W[oj]WL[326.996]
;B[og]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[js]WL[324.664]
;B[lf]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[lh]WL[313.99]
;B[is]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[kq]WL[304.442]
;B[kr]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ng]WL[283.223]
;B[hr]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[nk]WL[275.519]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: lol
]
;B[mk]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ni]WL[269.153]
;B[mi]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[mh]WL[267.243]C[Mihan [3k\]: yep. that would do it. 
]
;B[gq]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ni]WL[264.89]
;B[da]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ea]WL[258.081]
;B[ca]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[fa]WL[248.796]
;B[oh]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[rg]WL[247.053]
;B[rh]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[sf]WL[245.329]
;B[re]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[qj]WL[238.437]
;B[rj]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[qg]WL[235.706]
;B[qi]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[pj]WL[233.968]
;B[sh]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[sg]WL[231.105]
;B[dl]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[dj]WL[225.923]
;B[cj]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[qp]WL[221.03]
;B[po]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ee]WL[218.062]
;B[ce]BL[30]OB[1]C[Dexterity [2k?\]: b still will win
]
;W[kb]WL[207.342]
;B[ka]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[se]WL[203.158]
;B[sd]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[la]WL[200.714]
;B[ja]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[oa]WL[199.74]
;B[qa]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ls]WL[197.986]
;B[do]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[em]WL[195.466]C[Mihan [3k\]: true :( I thought w killed the center. 
]
;B[kc]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[lb]WL[188.488]
;B[rm]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[op]WL[183.89]
;B[sn]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[rp]WL[180.579]
;B[ia]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ha]WL[176.795]
;B[ln]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[sm]WL[173.347]
;B[sl]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[he]WL[169.451]
;B[ge]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[id]WL[157.741]
;B[hd]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[gm]WL[147.053]
;B[so]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[sp]WL[141.641]
;B[sm]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[kn]WL[137.792]
;B[lo]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ie]WL[135.828]C[Jebus [2d\]: i think b wins
]
;B[sj]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[fd]WL[130.219]
;B[dm]BL[30]OB[1]C[yby [2d\]: p5 is a point
]
;W[gc]WL[127.874]
;B[pk]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[mg]WL[124.996]
;B[pg]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[oq]WL[123.097]C[Nongdan [6k\]: w lose
]
;B[]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[]WL[122.844]TW[ga][ma][na][eb][fb][mb][ec][nc][ld][md][le][me][ne][oe][kf][lf][jg][kg][jh][li][mi][jj][kj][mj][nj][mk][fl][jl][kl][ll][ml][nl][nq][rq][sq][mr][or][pr][qr][rr][sr][ms][ns][os][ps][qs][rs][ss]TB[aa][ba][ra][sa][ab][bb][rb][sb][ac][bc][rc][sc][ad][bd][qd][ae][be][af][bf][ag][bg][ah][bh][ch][ai][bi][ri][si][aj][bj][ak][bk][ck][rk][sk][al][bl][cl][am][bm][an][bn][ao][co][ho][ap][bp][gp][hp][ip][jp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][hq][kq][ar][br][cr][er][fr][gr][ir][as][bs][cs][ds][fs][gs][hs][js]C[Nongdan [6k\]: ~ 21 point
])
