(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[0]OT[3x30 byo-yomi]
PW[roln111]PB[Hutoshi]WR[8d]BR[7d]DT[2009-06-21]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Hutoshi [7d\]: hi
]RE[B+Resign]
;B[qd]BL[30]OB[3]C[roln111 [8d\]: hi
]
;W[dd]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[pq]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[dp]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[fc]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[cf]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[kc]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[po]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qo]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[qn]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qp]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pn]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qj]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[oq]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[or]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pp]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qq]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[nq]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[nr]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[lq]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[mq]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[mp]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[mr]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[lp]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[pf]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[db]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[cn]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[bo]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[bn]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ci]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[cp]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[cq]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[co]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[bq]WL[30]OW[3]C[mihoda [1k\]: i would have never found c4 in a million years
]
;B[ck]BL[30]OB[3]C[cere: 點解唔幫人加鍾-.-
]
;W[fp]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[hd]BL[30]OB[3]C[mihoda [1k\]: H16
]
;W[oj]WL[30]OW[3]C[darkboy [4k\]: good call :)
bstok [?\]: j3
]
;B[mj]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[oh]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qh]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[qc]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[pc]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pb]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qb]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[of]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[oe]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ne]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[og]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[nf]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[ng]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[pg]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[mg]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ph]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qg]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[pe]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qf]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[oc]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[rc]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[pd]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qe]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[od]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[lf]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[lc]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[kd]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[kb]WL[30]OW[3]C[Archaic [1d\]: secure the bottom
Archaic [1d\]: m2
]
;B[jb]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[lb]WL[30]OW[3]C[dosaku13 [4k\]: roln is so strong
Beeko31k [2k\]: p18 
]
;B[hq]BL[30]OB[2]C[masek [-\]: 68 ходов
masek [-\]: немого КИНО
masek [-\]: включите музыку давайте .Чат
]
;W[ld]WL[30]OW[3]C[Archaic [1d\]: how about n9 or r9
dosaku13 [4k\]: tenuki
]
;B[ke]BL[30]OB[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: tenuki not good idea he wants to protect his middle
meuns [2k\]: tenuki bad indeed
MChow [8k\]: o  .
EdhelDil [5k\]: e9 or something?
Airi [2d\]: ;E
EdhelDil [5k\]: or p8 :/
]
;W[ho]WL[30]OW[2]C[Beeko31k [2k\]: l2 
]
;B[fr]BL[30]OB[2]C[mihoda [1k\]: L2 gets netted
mihoda [1k\]: L2, m2, M1 K2
]
;W[er]WL[30]OW[2]C[Beeko31k [2k\]: then l3 
Archaic [1d\]: i would've done a splitting attack maybe by k3
mihoda [1k\]: K3
Archaic [1d\]: then split the c4 group and the h3 group
]
;B[eq]BL[30]OB[2]C[Beeko31k [2k\]: It would puy n4 in danger
Mem0r3x [1k\]: Then k3 not l3
mihoda [1k\]: it ends in atari before black can cut
Beeko31k [2k\]: *put
]
;W[fq]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[dr]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[dq]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[es]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[ir]WL[30]OW[2]C[Airi [2d\]: ¬ ‿'¨¨
mihoda [1k\]: then a direct atir and capture
Beeko31k [2k\]: j3 
]
;B[hr]BL[30]OB[2]C[meuns [2k\]: can you describe your smiley ?
MChow [8k\]: '
mihoda [1k\]: :)
Archaic [1d\]: c2
meuns [2k\]: ^^
MChow [8k\]: -
]
;W[iq]WL[30]OW[2]C[Beeko31k [2k\]: g1 
Stinky [3k\]: c2 
mihoda [1k\]: c2 really
Archaic [1d\]: so white is instead going for a moyo here
meuns [2k\]: C1 gote so...
sameasyou [2d\]: c2 and b is alive
]
;B[cr]BL[30]OB[2]C[EdhelDil [5k\]: e4 e5 e2 ?
mou00000 [15k\]: there is small
]
;W[ep]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[er]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[br]WL[30]OW[2]C[mihoda [1k\]: well done black
]
;B[cs]BL[30]OB[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: i guess a moyo is a better idea
]
;W[bp]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: since black would just run out and ruin evrything
meuns [2k\]: gote
meuns [2k\]: what !!
MChow [8k\]: h1 
EdhelDil [5k\]: h1 needed
mihoda [1k\]: fine, he can chase w now
mihoda [1k\]: on both sides
csgo [?\]: b did not use l2 sente move
Mem0r3x [1k\]: d11
dosaku13 [4k\]: he whant to kill b6 group
DnFBlitz [1k\]: why is h1 needed?
]
;B[bi]BL[30]OB[2]C[sameasyou [2d\]: f9
EdhelDil [5k\]: oh sorry ^^
Archaic [1d\]: a12
EdhelDil [5k\]: a12??
Mem0r3x [1k\]: You surely mean b12?
Airi [2d\]: a12 b18 
]
;W[bh]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: what's b18
Airi [2d\]: joseki
mou00000 [15k\]: b10?
Archaic [1d\]: lol
Mem0r3x [1k\]: Airi...
]
;B[ek]BL[30]OB[2]C[SuperFrank [4k\]: roln is too strong to lose to b
Archaic [1d\]: airi is being funny :)
Airi [2d\]: ¬ ‿'¨¨
Archaic [1d\]: haha
]
;W[bj]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: i meant b12
xio [8k\]: w b7?
mou00000 [15k\]: b7 is small
mou00000 [15k\]: and easy die
Mem0r3x [1k\]: e11
]
;B[en]BL[30]OB[2]C[vademecum [2d\]: b7 is nothing
]
;W[fn]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[fm]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[gm]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: these two moves were pretty easy to guess
Mem0r3x [1k\]: Cut works?
]
;B[gn]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[fo]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[fl]BL[30]OB[2]
;W[hm]WL[30]OW[2]C[meuns [2k\]: w alive
EdhelDil [5k\]: e18 
Archaic [1d\]: now n9
Archaic [1d\]: for white
meuns [2k\]: great influence in center
]
;B[hk]BL[30]OB[2]C[mihoda [1k\]: p9 
Archaic [1d\]: g14
]
;W[jl]WL[30]OW[2]C[Beeko31k [2k\]: easy to invade
Archaic [1d\]: okay this is better first
mou00000 [15k\]: p9 is a good place
Airi [2d\]: looks like w+2.5
mou00000 [15k\]: but it is not very big i think
Archaic [1d\]: no p9 mou he doesn't want to save his stones
Beeko31k [2k\]: p9 would elp black alot
Archaic [1d\]: yea stones are too small he would want to do something like n9
mou00000 [15k\]: no
rvrey [8k\]: Q8 ??
mou00000 [15k\]: not me say p9
nickwild [3k\]: p8?
Archaic [1d\]: good job mou you are nice 15k lol
]
;B[eb]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ec]WL[30]OW[2]C[Mem0r3x [1k\]: p8 = suicide?
EdhelDil [5k\]: o8 ?
]
;B[fb]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[fd]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[gd]BL[30]OB[1]C[PinotNero [2k\]: b got nice shape everywhere
Archaic [1d\]: ?
]
;W[fe]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: mistake
Archaic [1d\]: b could've just f15
Archaic [1d\]: wait my bad
Beeko31k [2k\]: j6 j8 k9 
masek [-\]: p9 
]
;B[cc]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[dc]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: n9 better
mou00000 [15k\]: C18
R [2k\]: g13 
nogonow [2k\]: can live?
meuns [2k\]: no
]
;B[jk]BL[30]OB[1]C[mihoda [1k\]: i don't think so
]
;W[kk]WL[30]OW[2]C[PinotNero [2k\]: b win
Archaic [1d\]: i would've played l8 instead of k8
Mem0r3x [1k\]: Ko threats maybe.
keysersoze [?\]: c17 is that aji?
]
;B[jj]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: that's an example of a move that opens up new ko threats
rvrey [8k\]: aji kashi^^^
Baccano [2d?\]: c18 not even a good ko threats, waste yose
Archaic [1d\]: or more numerous and bigger ko threats
lemzwerg [6k\]: this was a time-tesuji
]
;W[mk]WL[30]OW[2]C[rvrey [8k\]: kikashi
Archaic [1d\]: because it's a spceial type of move i'm guessing this is the reason pros do it...
]
;B[nk]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: c17 in the future won't be big, so the opponent would just ignore it...but if he does it now it's big so the opponent will respond and thus he won't waste a move and it opens up bigger more numerous ko threats
mou00000 [15k\]: Q8?
]
;W[nj]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: this is the reason
Archaic [1d\]: possibly
Tasselhof [4k\]: does b12 mean c17  cant live?
Archaic [1d\]: or just for time
]
;B[ok]BL[30]OB[1]C[EdhelDil [5k\]: c14 helps kill it
EdhelDil [5k\]: but it gives lots of threats
Baccano [2d?\]: just for time it was
EdhelDil [5k\]: it's almost alive
mou00000 [15k\]: Q8
Tasselhof [4k\]: because with that absent I saw it live in a pro game
meuns [2k\]: q8...
Archaic [1d\]: so c17 wouldn't be wasting a ko threat like some people would assume
]
;W[ml]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: since if he does it later the opponent would just ignore it and he wouldn't be able to open up newer bigger ko threats anymore
Tasselhof [4k\]: c14 is not enough
]
;B[pk]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[mi]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[lj]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[kj]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[li]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ki]WL[30]OW[2]C[mihoda [1k\]: a break in!
]
;B[lh]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[bl]WL[30]OW[2]C[meuns [2k\]: nice for B
Beeko31k [2k\]: l8 
Archaic [1d\]: but in this case hutoshi needed time, he's not strong enough to make those kind of moves
EdhelDil [5k\]: nice for white
mihoda [1k\]: j12 
]
;B[di]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: where you see lee changho making a seemingly pointless move and wasting a threat when he didn't need a time suji
]
;W[dh]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[cj]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ai]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[ei]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[eh]WL[30]OW[2]C[keysersoze [?\]: 7-8d not strong?)
Archaic [1d\]: i figured all this out myself one day
guki [?\]: who is better?
]
;B[fh]BL[30]OB[1]C[mou00000 [15k\]: i think b
Archaic [1d\]: i was like i heard about "pros making moves in order to open up threats", then i wondered isn't that move itself wasting a threat?
]
;W[fg]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: and i saw lee changho making a seemingly pointless move 
Beeko31k [2k\]: Thats because you cant play a 30 sec blitz in real life Go
Archaic [1d\]: then i got started crunching my mind and thinking of the reasons 
Addmiral [2k\]: b still has o7, h4, j8, m2
]
;B[gg]BL[30]OB[1]C[realtony [2d\]: quite close
]
;W[ib]WL[30]OW[2]C[EdhelDil [5k\]: "seemingly" is the keyword
keysersoze [?\]: k19 ?
mihoda [1k\]: err, fail?
]
;B[hb]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: rite an ordinary move can also be used to open up threats
Archaic [1d\]: an ordinary "non-ko threat" move
R [1k\]: j18 works?
keysersoze [?\]: why not k19 ?
Baccano [2d?\]: reason might be to make sure white can't c19 if black d19 rather, if does white can live with ko (d19 c19 c18 e19 b19 d19 a18 )
]
;W[ic]WL[30]OW[2]C[EdhelDil [5k\]: fan hui shows lots of "seemingly" pointless moves in pro games that turn out to be huge threats
]
;B[ff]BL[30]OB[1]C[mihoda [1k\]: j19 ?
]
;W[eg]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: because if he plays that ordinary move later on, it's not big so the opponent wont respond and thus he won't be able to open up threats anymore
Baccano [2d?\]: but not sure why it wouldn't work later
Baccano [2d?\]: those aren't pros still
]
;B[gf]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: no i'm tlaking about when lee changho made a pointless move wasting a threa ti nthe middle of the game when he didn't need time and there was no ko active
Archaic [1d\]: taling about that
]
;W[ef]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: and the oppoennt responded because he had to, thus lee changho didn't waste a move
EdhelDil [5k\]: i'm quite sure lee chang ho does not waste moves...
csgo [?\]: I don't get it, why not j19 for b?
]
;B[ia]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: yea i just told u the possible reason why he did taht
]
;W[rn]WL[30]OW[2]C[guki [?\]: black is better
Baccano [2d?\]: oh, yeah, there's timing for some forcing moves
Addmiral [2k\]: s6 is nice
Msharingan [4k\]: ¨¨
EdhelDil [5k\]: so it's not pointless... shhesh ^^
mou00000 [15k\]: S8
Archaic [1d\]: that wasn't a forcing move it was wasting a threat literally
]
;B[ob]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[qc]WL[30]OW[2]C[guki [?\]: kou
]
;B[il]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: i've found a position where this proves to be true
]
;W[jm]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[pc]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[nb]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[pa]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[sq]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[rq]BL[30]OB[1]C[meuns [2k\]: seems close
]
;W[sp]WL[30]OW[2]C[jSd [9k\]: k12
]
;B[sr]BL[30]OB[1]C[jSd [9k\]: and w win
meuns [2k\]: no
Archaic [1d\]: o if you guys wanna see an example of a real strange ko threat
mou00000 [15k\]: w losing 
]
;W[cl]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: like that ko threat itself doesn't actually do anything
]
;B[dl]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: it's sort of like zugzwang in chess
]
;W[rk]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: it's marked under (secret) the first problem under browse by group on goproblems.com under multiple ko and eternal life
]
;B[om]BL[30]OB[1]C[EdhelDil [5k\]: a k othreat that doesn't do anything is not answered. period. you talk nonsense
keysersoze [?\]: b9 sente now?
]
;W[nn]WL[30]OW[2]C[mou00000 [15k\]: T5?
Archaic [1d\]: goproblems has a whole bunch of things marked with (secret) under the tesuji category
JackDawson [1d\]: C18 works for W?
]
;B[da]BL[30]OB[1]C[Baccano [2d?\]: c18
]
;W[cb]WL[30]OW[2]C[manduloome [6k\]: do you know what zugzwang is though?
Msharingan [4k\]: n7
]
;B[lk]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ll]WL[30]OW[2]C[rCr [3k\]: sente
]
;B[ih]BL[30]OB[1]C[meuns [2k\]: L2 big
]
;W[rj]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[ri]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: well edheldil if you wanna see something real wierd a ko threat that doesn't actually do anything
]
;W[qk]WL[30]OW[2]C[guki [?\]: b
]
;B[pj]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ro]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[qr]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[jh]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: i haven't looked at all the (secrets) but i'm sure they are interesting i'm not talking about things like double snapback i'm talking about real secret strategies
Archaic [1d\]: tesujis
JackDawson [1d\]: I mean C18 for Black :(
]
;B[jg]BL[30]OB[1]C[Baccano [2d?\]: c18 wasn't working for black
]
;W[ge]WL[30]OW[2]C[EdhelDil [5k\]: o19 big
csgo [?\]: m2
Archaic [1d\]: wwhite wins probably
EdhelDil [5k\]: well not "huge" but...
Archaic [1d\]: too close to tell
]
;B[he]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ig]WL[30]OW[2]C[keysersoze [?\]: Archaic is there a secret location on the web where u can take a peek at those secret tesujis?))
sameasyou [2d\]: k 13 better at j13
sameasyou [2d\]: too late now
XY0908 [-\]: man...
]
;B[hh]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: yes goproblems.com
Airi [2d\]: ¬ ‿'¨¨
]
;W[kg]WL[30]OW[2]C[EdhelDil [5k\]: keysersoze: then it wouldn't be too secret, would it ? ^^
nogonow [2k\]: ?
]
;B[kh]BL[30]OB[1]C[keysersoze [?\]: sure
]
;W[ji]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[jf]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[ii]WL[30]OW[2]C[Archaic [1d\]: browse by group goto tesuji category than go under mjultiple ko and eternal life and look at the first problem that's my problem
]
;B[hi]BL[30]OB[1]C[Beeko31k [2k\]: -.- Go problems isnt a secret
]
;W[fi]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[gh]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: the tesuji category has a bunch of secrets
]
;W[ij]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[ik]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: like a mllion of them
EdhelDil [5k\]: nice invasion
]
;W[bk]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[ej]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: browse by group under problems up top
meuns [2k\]: w seems ahead
mou00000 [15k\]: w win0 
EdhelDil [5k\]: i'm a bit amused by what is your definition of "secret" ... maybe "former secrets" would be better?
]
;W[lr]WL[30]OW[2]C[XY0908 [-\]: B lost so much at yose...
nogonow [2k\]: h4
Archaic [1d\]: yes former probably not modern
]
;B[nm]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: not recently discovered yea
]
;W[mm]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[on]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[oo]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[im]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[in]WL[30]OW[2]C[BenjaminGl [10k\]: man b looks like a grenade just went off on his face....all torn up by shrapnel
]
;B[hj]BL[30]OB[1]C[l8f7 [3k\]: h10
]
;W[kl]WL[30]OW[2]C[meuns [2k\]: H4
]
;B[ca]BL[30]OB[1]C[Archaic [1d\]: it all falls into the category of go strategy i dub "special strategy" which also includes mirror go which is the subject of my studies currently since it's everybody's weakness but nobody ever notices it
]
;W[ba]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[ea]BL[30]OB[1]C[XY0908 [-\]: BenjaminGI talks like a soldier ;-)
meuns [2k\]: ^^
EdhelDil [5k\]: w l19 sente
XY0908 [-\]: Oh, wait, he is GI.
Hutoshi [7d\]: thx
meuns [2k\]: \\o/
BenjaminGl [10k\]: ohh a gamer that plays too many war games :P
LeT63 [1d\]: b about +5
roln111 [8d\]: thx
Archaic [1d\]: not that i have any strength left in me to study i don't feel like it rather play for fun
Archaic [1d\]: i like utility grenades
Archaic [1d\]: much better than heavies
Tobamf [20k?\]: grenades are a wonderful way to deal with failing relationships
BenjaminGl [10k\]: I prefer Sniper Rifles
BenjaminGl [10k\]: be surprised what you will hear
BenjaminGl [10k\]: err see
BenjaminGl [10k\]: dunno where hear came from
BenjaminGl [10k\]: good bye
Archaic [1d\]: i was about to say that
])
